People gathered in Helena from all corners of Montana Wednesday to debate limits on archery permits for elk in the Missouri Breaks and 22 surrounding hunting districts.

While the discussion focused on the Breaks and nearby areas, at times it delved into more philosophical discussions including the pros and cons of nonresident hunters, public access to wildlife and outfitting in general.

The change from not having any permits to offering a limited number for bowhunters was first implemented in stages beginning in 2008, as Fish, Wildlife and Parks Department staffers said they were trying to find a way to be consistent and equitable while effectively controlling the elk population in the area. They said hunters were complaining of overcrowding, and had voiced concerns that bowhunters, especially nonresidents, were overharvesting the trophy bulls and pushing elk from public lands onto private property before the general big game rifle season began.

Rifle hunters were complaining the unlimited permits gave archery hunters unfair and unequal access. In addition, concerns were raised that bowhunters with modern equipment were able to kill too many bull elk.

Some bowhunters and rifle hunters at Wednesday’s FWP Commission work session praised the changes, saying that their hunting experience was enhanced in the Breaks, and since only 10 percent of the permits can be used by nonresident hunters, that it’s lessened their pressure.

“They just overwhelmed us,” said Dan Moore, who lives in Kalispell montana and Zortman. “I know that if I put in as a first pick I can get a tag. Don’t change a thing. It’s perfect.”

But other landowners, outfitters and hunters said the limits put on archery permits, especially in hunting districts where elk populations are above targets, is unfair and creates an economic hit in times that are tough already.

Paul Ellis with the Coalition for Responsible Management of Fish and Wildlife said the bowhunters were self-regulating prior to the implementation of elk archery permits. He accused FWP of ignoring its own elk management plan and mission statement, noting that in the majority of hunting districts the elk population was over objectives — in some cases, by quite a bit. For example, in hunting district 621, the population goal is around 1,400 to 1,650 elk, but about 2,553 were recently observed.

“You need to match up hunting opportunities with the available resources,” Ellis said. “I believe there were and are some solutions that will address overcrowding, equity and access if we work together on this.”

Mac Minard, executive director of the Montana Outfitters and Guides Association, said the loss of hunting opportunities, when combined with multipliers like hunters buying supplies and staying in small communities equated to a $9.4 million hit from just 2009 and 2010.

“You’re not charged with having to deal with that, but it is a consequence of what you have done,” Minard told the FWP Commission. “

Eric Albus, a landowner who operates Milk River Outfitters, said he believes the new permit system also is lessening access because people he knows are closing roads because of them. Chris Faber, a landowner and outfitter on Bear Paw Mountain, added that last year the public harvested 29 cow and 12 bull elk, along with three bighorn sheep and five mountain lions from his property.

“People think when someone leases a place they automatically shut it down,” Faber said. “I think you need to look into who is leasing the land, like doctors and sporting clubs. It isn’t the outfitters, but we’re getting blamed for it.

“If you’re going to run outfitters out of business, like with I-161, you’ll make problems bigger and create a lot of animosity … and once you make a landowner mad I don’t think you get him back.”

I-161 passed last fall and abolished outfitter-sponsored nonresident big game licenses but replaced them with 5,500 general nonresident big game licenses.

John Gibson, president of the Public Land/Water Access Association, and a board member for the Montana Wildlife Federation, countered that the opportunity by property owners and outfitters to profit off of big game and those wishing to hunt already is occurring, as shown by the number of legislative bills that proposed to enact policies restricting the powers of the FWP Commission.

“There’s a direct correlation between the number of nonresidents allowed to hunt and use our resources and the acres of land not available to residential sportsmen and roads closed for public access,” Gibson said. “If you really believe that you can resolve your access problems and you’re game management problems by increasing the number of nonresidents who have chosen to hunt in Montana, then I suggest you contact your psychiatrist immediately. That hasn’t happened in the 50 years I’ve been watching it.”

He added that at two public meetings he attended over the archery permit limits, that there was overwhelming support for the move.

Vito Quatraro, president of Bozeman’s Headwaters Sportsmen Association, added that if the elk in the Breaks are over population goals, the FWP should simply increase the number of cow permits in the area renowned for growing large bull elk.

“That will bring down your population, but will not bring down the population with archery tags in the Breaks,” Quatraro said. “People are not coming to shoot cows, but to shoot big bulls. So if you are over objectives, think about cow tags — and hey, maybe only on private land because that’s who is saying there’s too many elk on the land.”

What did get support is the formation of an advisory group on the subject, but the commission was cautioned that the makeup had to be evenly split among a wide range of interests. Some also urged the commission to go back to the previous no-permit limits now while the advisory group looked into the matter, though, while others said the commission should keep the current system in place until the group could come to a consensus.

Commissioners didn’t take any action on the matter at the work session. The FWP will begin its biennial season-setting process in July by asking the public if they have any issues the state should address. Proposed quota ranges and regulations won’t be presented to the commission until its December meeting, with final seasonal recommendations being adopted in February 2012